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December 12, 2018

Mick West, Owner of Contrailscience, lies once again. Please be aware!


I consider this as proof of another chemtrails debunker inconsistency. Chemtrails debunker often claim that contrails was made of water vapor. This is a false statement.

The story started when I posted to facebook about: “Anyone who says that contrails are made only of water vapor is shill.”. Then Mick West responded, 4 August 2012:
“But there’s lots of aerosols in the atmosphere anyway, that’s how natural clouds form.
Contrails would form even if there were no soot in the exhaust. The main thing is the water in the exhaust.”

Screen shot:

In response to my response of:
“My reference mentions that aerosols are required.”

He answered:
“No it does not. It says aerosol is important. The large amount of aerosols in the exhaust does change the properties of contrails, but it is not required. A contrail would form anyway, just one with different crystal density.

Consider a pure hydrogen engine. It would produce no aerosols, just water. And yet a contrail would still form.

Aerosols MUST be in the air already otherwise there would be no clouds.”

Screenshot:

 

His statement is scientifically wrong:

NASA – Contrails Education – Contrails Science
“The exhaust of an aircraft contains both gas (vapor) and solid particles. Both of these are important in the formation of contrails. “

Contrails: What’s Left Behind Is Bad News
“Tests were performed with a NASA jet aircraft examining the effect of sulfur levels in jet fuel exhaust. During the airborne test one engine was run on normal jet fuel and the other engine was run on fuel that emitted exhaust with a lower sulfur content. The high sulfur engine, representing most jet engines on modern commercial aircraft, produced a contrail that lasted through a larger range of temperatures and formed faster out of the engine. The low sulfur engine did the opposite. “Aircraft generate an invisible aerosol trail which enhances the background level of condensation nuclei, in particular regions with dense air traffic at northern latitudes and near the tropopause”.”

a collection of papers presented at the 14th International Conference on Nucleation and Atmospheric Aerosols, Helsinki, 26 – 30 August 1996.
“A series of experiments has been performed observing contrails formation of twin-angine jet aircraft (ATTAS-VFW 614 and Airbus A310-300) run with different sulfur containing fuels on the two engines at the same time. The fuel sulfur mass content was varied from 2 to 5500 ppm. The results suggest that contrails particles form mainly from soot particles. The higher the sulfur content the more the soot particles get activated as condensation neclei.

http://science-edu.larc.nasa.gov/SCOOL/pdf/Kiwi_Kids_Cloud_Guide.pdf
“Contrails are formed when particles from aircraft jet engines mix with the water vapour in the air. The water vapour condenses and freezes around the particles causing long white trails across the sky.”

http://www.gispri.or.jp/symp/pdf/ipccsym/sraa.pdf
“Sulfur and soot particles emitted by aircraft, along with water vapor, trigger the formation of line-shaped white clouds called condensation trails, or contrails. Contrails have a positive radiative forcing and add to warming. These emissions may also induce greater cirrus cloud cover, which would increase warming as well. But this process is poorly understood and it is not yet clear how much, if at all, aircraft emissions increase cirrus cloudiness.”

http://aero-net.info/fileadmin/aeronet_files/links/documents/DLR/Schumann_Contrails.pdf
“Particles emitted from the aircraft change the concentration of particles in the atmospheric aerosol that influence cirrus formation over the whole life-time of the particles formed.”

ftp://ftp.rta.nato.int/PubFullText/RTO/EN/RTO-EN-AVT-150/EN-AVT-150-15.pdf
“During the accumulation of soot particles in the troposphere owing to an increase in fuel consumption by aviation, the region covered with contrails is also increased.”

 

Note that I never see him post any scientific evidence to back up his statement. That is something weird from someone who has website with the name of contrailscience. The explanation for contrails in his website is like this, very different from the explanation of contrails in the previous scientific reference:
http://contrailscience.com/contrails-are-condensation-but-not-like-your-breath/
“When you breath out on a cold day, you see a little cloud of condensation form from your breath. This is the same kind of thing, your damp warm lungs add moisture to the air, and when you breath out, you get condensation.

But the condensation from your breath quickly evaporates, usually in less than a second. Condensation trails from a jet can last for many minutes, even for hours sometimes. So why is there this difference? Why do jet contrails sometime persist, but your breath condensation quickly evaporates?

The difference is because a contrail freezes.”

 

His explanation at his forum about contrails:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/factual-errors-in-why-in-the-world-are-they-spraying.712/#post-18298
“In contrail formation that starts out as condensed water (which almost instantly freezes, and then starts to accrete).”

His post actually include link from scientific reference, but the explanation differ:
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/policy_guidance/envir_policy/media/contrails.pdf
“If sufficient humidity occurs in the exhaust plume, water condenses on particles to form liquid droplets.”

Note that the word is “condenses on”, not “condenses into”. So, the particles play a role as something that the water moisture cling on to.

 

He claimed that all the articles in contrailscience are his thoughts:

He provided link to a new article  dated of July 31st, 2012.

Unlike the article with similar theme from TheTruthDenied, his article states there is no good reason to do contrails avoidance.

Our point is clear, that unless people do something, trails will become serious problem if it is not already a serious problem.

The reason I mentioned his article is because of this quote bellow:
“Contrails also require condensation nuclei. Often this comes from soot and sulphur and other byproducts in the engine exhaust.”

He denied my statement about “My reference mentions that aerosols are required.”, when a few days before he wrote on his website: “Contrails also require condensation nuclei”.

Edit:
The sentence are then edited. Note that I made the article reading the first version of his web page.

this link is an archive of August 29th, 2012 where the sentence still was not changed.

Here is the archive link for september 20th, 2012 where the sentence changed into:
“Contrails also generally require condensation nuclei.”

The word generally was added.

 

 

Then he give me a  graph for reference:

Which is:

I then posted a different graph with the same topic:

His response:
“My graph came from your link. It seems pretty similar to the second one you posted, but with an additional set of estimates.”

Screenshot:

The graph posted by Mick West is  supposed to be similar the red bar on the graph posted by me. However, note his graph shows contrails have a lower warming property than CO2, when mine shows almost the same thing. Then another chemtrails debunker also posted a graph on David Icke’s  forum, similar to the one posted by Mick West.

I consider this proof of manipulated data, not by Mick West, but by something else in a bigger scale. This is an obvious game going on , and I thought the public should be aware.

 

Edit:
I note that some people agree with the post bellow, posted by Mick West:
“But there’s lots of aerosols in the atmosphere anyway, that’s how natural clouds form.
Contrails would form even if there were no soot in the exhaust. The main thing is the water in the exhaust.”

While it may look make sense, logical, etc; There is problem with that statement: no evidence.

That statement was not backed up by scientific evidence, and probably never. Here is reference from scientific document, denying the first statement:
http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE_CD1998-2010/ICAS2006/PAPERS/136.PDF
“(1). Cirrus clouds can evolve from spreading persistent contrails known as primary cirrus or contrail cirrus (2). Secondary cirrus occur due to locally increased soot and aerosol concentration, which might lead to the formation of cirrus clouds that would not form in the absence of air traffic.”

Clouds made by plane aerosol is different from natural clouds.

Then for the second statement:
http://science-edu.larc.nasa.gov/contrail-edu/science.html
“Contrails are clouds formed when water vapor condenses and freezes around small particles (aerosols) that exist in aircraft exhaust. Some of that water vapor comes from the air around the plane; and, some is added by the exhaust of the aircraft.”

The main thing of contrails is not the water, but the aerosol or particle production. I could not find statement in scientific reference that support the idea of contrails can form with only water vapor.

The strange things is, many people (even among chemtrails believer) consider Mick West assumption as facts, even without evidence, and deny the real fact.

 

Edit:
Recently I came accross clouds information for kids from thecontrails.com. There is two different definition of contrails origin.

From NASA:
http://science-edu.larc.nasa.gov/SCOOL/pdf/Kiwi_Kids_Cloud_Guide.pdf
“Contrails are formed when particles from aircraft jet engines mix with the water vapour in the air. The water vapour condenses and freezes around the particles causing long white trails across the sky.”

From Weather Wiz Kids:
http://www.weatherwizkids.com/weather-clouds.htm
“Contrails are condensation trails left behind jet aircrafts. Contrails form when hot humid air from jet exhaust mixes with environmental air of low vapor pressure and low temperature. The mixing is a result of turbulence generated by the engine exhaust.”

 

We see different source of contrails. The first link mention that contrails are from particles, the second link are from hot humid air. Only one of them is correct. Chemtrails debunker like Mick West deny the first link and agree with the second link.

Different crucial explanation of the same thing indicate disinformation. The difference is crucial because it change the logic. Anyone believe in the second link would think that to create trails on unfavorable condition would require more water. While anyone who believe in the first link would think that to create trails on unfavorable condition would require more particles which is originally very very small in percentage.

This link bellow indicate that 5500ppm (0.55%) is enough to produce more trails:
A collection of papers presented at the 14th International Conference on Nucleation and Atmospheric Aerosols, Helsinki, 26 – 30 August 1996.

Based on the above link, spraying chemtrails do not need supertanker.

 

Edit:
It seems Mick West still do not learn his lesson. He kept spewing baseless logic.
The article of Dec 13th, 2012:
“But the condensation from your breath quickly evaporates, usually in less than a second. Condensation trails from a jet can last for many minutes, even for hours sometimes. So why is there this difference? Why do jet contrails sometime persist, but your breath condensation quickly evaporates?

The difference is because a contrail freezes.”

The real reason for why the contrails persist is because contrails have nuclei. The nuclei make the water vapor stick together. Without the nuclei, the trails may not form at all:
Contrails: What’s Left Behind Is Bad News, By Nick Onkow, March 4, 2006
There are several methods that can be explored that will help reduce the role that contrails play in global warming. The easiest way to avoid this global warming through contrail cirrus clouds is to have jets fly at different altitudes. Flying higher than the typical 30,000 to 40,000 feet would usually stop contrails from forming, as would flying lower. another option might be to increase the emission standards of jet engines and with that only insure airplanes with the newer, cleaner engines. Tests were performed with a NASA jet aircraft examining the effect of sulfur levels in jet fuel exhaust. During the airborne test one engine was run on normal jet fuel and the other engine was run on fuel that emitted exhaust with a lower sulfur content. The high sulfur engine, representing most jet engines on modern commercial aircraft, produced a contrail that lasted through a larger range of temperatures and formed faster out of the engine. The low sulfur engine did the opposite. This condensation nuclei is the tiny matter that gives water vapor the ability to form. The International Civil Aviation Organization is in favor of making polluting, obsolete aircraft uninsurable. While this option would not completely eliminate contrails, it would narrow the window of conditions needed to form them, making them less common.”

 

In that experiment, sulfur is a very important factor for contrails life and visibility. Chemtrails debunker often claimed that banning contrails is impossible because air travel is neccesary, the article explained that contrails can be avoided without banning air travel.

Since chemtrails are also trail, if government ban contrails, then chemtrails will also be banned.

 

The Truth Denied

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19 Responses “Mick West, Owner of Contrailscience, lies once again. Please be aware!”

  1. charles kafka
    August 7, 2012 at 1:56 AM

    he has a good point,
    it’s dust or micro dust in the air, that allows the water vapor to turn into ice crystals, or water droplets. which are the contrails.
    the main different in contrails and chemtrails are the jets apparently have their own very fine particles that are added to the mix, that the water vapor can form on.
    i do see other mixes in chemtrails,
    they are grayer looking, and seem to last all day, spreading through the sky.
    anyway, roxy you seem to have it covered,
    just thought i’d add in my 2 cents.

  2. August 7, 2012 at 2:08 AM

    who has a good point?

  3. Jane
    August 11, 2012 at 2:49 PM

    Can clouds exist without dust particles or other material?
    Can clouds exist without water vapor?

    Who is correct, you or Mick?

    • August 12, 2012 at 7:04 PM

      This is about contrails, not clouds.

      The argumentation is Mick West’s post in facebook vs his post in his website.

      “Contrails would form even if there were no soot in the exhaust.”
      vs
      “Contrails also require condensation nuclei.”

      Both are opposite to each other, only one of them is correct but all of them are statement by Mick West.

      • August 13, 2012 at 8:27 AM

        The statements are not opposite. You are ignoring the condensation nuclei already present in the atmosphere.

        • August 13, 2012 at 6:50 PM

          I see. Then why you deny this:
          “My reference mentions that aerosols are required.”

          Which you answer with:
          “No it does not. ….”

          But still, you still never post scientific reference for this:
          “Contrails would form even if there were no soot in the exhaust.”

          • August 18, 2012 at 2:50 PM

            You reference did not say they were required, which was my point.

            At some point ice crystal formation requires a condensation nuclei. This is USUALLY an aerosol in the exhaust or the ambient air. However it can also be “homogeneously nucleated ice ” – i.e. tiny ice crystals that formed without an aerosol. Source: http://www.grida.no/publications/other/ipcc_sr/?src=/climate/ipcc/aviation/038.htm

            “Ice particle nucleation occurs either through homogeneous nucleation (when pure water droplets or liquid aerosol particles freeze) or through heterogeneous nucleation, when freezing of the liquid is triggered by a solid particle or surface that is in contact with the liquid or suspended within the liquid.”

            Of course jet engines all create nuclei in the form of aerosols, so there’s no need for this. However some rocket engines burn hydrogen and oxygen, and produce only water, and still leave a very solid contrail.

          • August 21, 2012 at 7:13 PM

            I am not sure what your point is.

            Thanks for the link. This should be included to make the reader understand:
            “For instance, supersaturations in excess of 40-50% with respect to ice are needed for sulfuric acid particles to freeze homogeneously”.

            Supersaturation : “If the relative humidity becomes greater than 100%, it is called supersaturated.”

            Do you have explicit quote about more water produce more contrails?

  4. August 18, 2012 at 2:52 PM

    And I see Roxy keeps mentioning the graphs like I forged them. The problem here is THIS WAS YOUR GRAPH!!! I got it from the link you just posted. You then posted another one, and I said they looked similar. They do look similar, but they are not the same.

    • August 18, 2012 at 3:02 PM

      Mick, you are confusing me Roxy Lopez, with the author of this post and article. I simply post them, I did not write the article, I approve your comments, period. Leave me out of your discussion, keep it between you and the author please, or I will ban you from The Truth Denied. Have respect.

    • August 18, 2012 at 3:04 PM

      AND for the record Roxy Lopez did not write the article or use any graphs whatsoever…..Have the conversation with the AUTHOR please.

    • August 21, 2012 at 6:59 PM

      What interesting is chemtrails debunker always choose to post the one that suppress the contrails number.

  5. August 20, 2012 at 10:12 PM

    Sorry Laura, I though Roxy had reposted something about this on Facebook.

    I would be grateful if sucahyo could answer my points above, particularly about homogeneously nucleated ice.

    • January 27, 2013 at 10:13 PM

      Already answered, but still do not reply from Mick West.

      • Nicole
        March 1, 2013 at 7:41 PM

        I don’t see the truth behind these allegations

        • March 3, 2013 at 6:34 PM

          I see myself white or black nimbus clouds dissapear after trails show up. For me trails is not natural and disturb nature.

          What do you think is the fact of contrails?

  6. August 5, 2018 at 2:48 PM

    Mic West is a one giant A-Hole. Anytime I see or smell his name associated with anything, I know that he has been lurking around, being paid by some unscrupulous organization to “debunk” whatever is being stated. We need to see who is paying Mr. West. Let’s get his IRS filings and see who it is that funds his activity. I think I will make a video debunking Mr. West.

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